107 thoughts on “The Mystery of Robert Adams: Did He Really Meet Ramana Maharshi and the Sages of India?”
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hovila
February 14, 2020 at 5:37 am Edit
Thanks for this.
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Mac Nicolson
February 14, 2020 at 11:40 pm Edit
Fascinating that even liars can leave words of truth in their wake.
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Anthony Crook
February 16, 2020 at 5:21 am Edit
Feels like alot of lies on the part of the contributors of this story. How do we know anyone in this article is telling the truth? Or that the second hand statements are True? Not written well either, I sense lies. But..Who knows. I have come to experience directly that this realm is a ‘dream’ so. I guess nothing really surprises me anymore. I Prayed for explanation of what was happening in my experience, and Robert appeared. I’ve been listening to his satsangs for 3 years now, and what he speaks about has proven true in my own direct experience. He has been a trustworthy guide of sorts for ‘me’. All that’s been said in this article just doesn’t feel completely true. And I’m not really sure if any of it matters..Peace
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February 16, 2020 at 12:04 pm Edit
Anthony, how do you explain away the emails from Katya Osborne saying that Robert Adams was never at her house when he repeatedly said he was?
As you said, some of my account was second hand, some of it memories that, however sincere, may have been unreliable. I would absolutely love for someone to come here and write their own first hand verification of any of Robert’s stories.
Not a single person has ever come forward and verified they saw Robert in India. Researchers at Ramana Ashram have looked through every photo taken in the 1940’s and found nothing of Robert Adams.
What are we to think in the face of numerous lies by him and not the slightest evidence he was with any of the teachers he claimed to be? I too, could not believe he would lie about Ramana. Who does that? But then, when I discovered he was telling people he was with Nisargadatta Maharaj for 6 months in Bombay, when he’d never heard of him when I knew him, what was I to think?
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Petrosz Amadeus Xrzistosz
February 18, 2020 at 3:26 am Edit
No idea who Steven Strouth is, but he overextends himself by attempting to critique the idea of self-inquiry and contrasting it (and practice generally) with something he calls “investigation.” No where in Advaita, or in the teachings of Ramana or others, have I encountered this distinction and I have not found it useful in my own teaching efforts. Nor have I encountered the critique that the specific instructions on inquiry can lead to ego-inflation.
Strouth ignores that even inquiry is not the final or ultimate teaching of advaita and Robert Adams made this clear in his satsangs, that ultimately even inquiry and the “I” do not exist. He also teaches (as most teachers do) that different practices or methods may be given to different students depending on their own level of attainment. There is no way his practice instructions can be taken as leading to ego-inflation.
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Love
Hi Anthony I feel the same way you do. I’ve been listening to Robert for years too and his teachings have done so much good in my life. I feel deep in my heart that Robert is the real deal. I trust Robert more than my own mind. Yes, I literally trust him than my own mind. And perhaps other people had a similar experience, but it frightened the hell out of them. And perhaps their own minds felt the need to destroy Robert and his teachings by making up a lot of lies, which I feel this article is.
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Warwick Wakefield
April 30, 2020 at 4:11 am Edit
So many people say that Adams has “helped” them, and they trust Adams more than they trust themselves.
This is the situation that Tanya Tucker sings about in her song, “Delta Dawn.”
“Delta Dawn, Delta Dawn, what’s that flower you have on,
Can it be a faded rose from days gone by?
And did I hear you say,
he was meetin’ you here today,
to take you to his mansion in the sky?”Like
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John Lamenzo
February 17, 2020 at 7:56 pm Edit
I met Robert in Sedona in 1993. He was severely debilitated by the Parkinsons. It was a brief darshan, and my experience was normal. He had difficulty speaking. I assumed that what he said was true, but to me not earth shattering. What caught my eye about this story here, are the references to Rudi and Franklin Jones. Rudi indeed had an oriental antique shop in lower Manhattan. I met Muktananda, Rudi, and Jones in the Fall of 1970 in Woodstock, NY at a small Lutheran church where Baba gave one of his first darshans in the US. At the break, I was just standing around minding my own business, when a little Indian man, the translator, came up to me and spoke in very polite English: ‘Sir, namaste, Sri Baba would like to speak with you’. Me: ‘I am honored’. ..to be continued, sometime…
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February 17, 2020 at 10:56 pm Edit
John Lamenzo,
Yes, Robert talked a lot about Rudi [Swami Rudrananda]. I think there is very little chance that Robert co-owned the antique store with him in NYC but if someone has different information, please post it here.
Robert had read a lot of Adi Da’s books and information about the shop was described there.
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Anonymous
February 17, 2020 at 10:07 pm Edit
Blake Warner and David Warner…a confusing paragraph.
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February 17, 2020 at 10:59 pm Edit
Anonymous,
Yes, that paragraph would not make a lot of sense to most people. Dr. Blake Warner is the person behind all the take-down notices regarding Robert Adams transcripts on the internet. Longtime Robert Adams students have wondered who he is and there is even a petition on the internet to find out who he is. He’s Robert Adam’s daughter Melanie’s husband.
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Petrosz Amadeus Xrzistosz
February 18, 2020 at 3:28 am Edit
I might also note that Strouth’s only other apparent accomplishment is a self-published e-book critical of the Radhasoami (Sant Mat) path, which can be found on Amazon.
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February 18, 2020 at 8:43 am Edit
Interesting little tidbit I just found out today. Robert widely told everyone he went to Joel Goldsmith lectures in Manhattan, New York and it was Joel who told him to visit Yogananda who then told him to visit Ramana Ashram.
One problem… According to the Joel Goldsmith Institute, Joel gave his first lecture in New York in 1953, three years after Ramana had passed.
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Anonymous
Joel Goldsmith gave lessons earlier than this (https://wikipedia.org/en/The_Infinite_Way). He was surely active prior to that as well.
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Red1963
February 18, 2020 at 3:44 pm Edit
Interesting….
Unfortunately what you say about Robert Adams has the ring of truth….
However i agree with Petrosz Amadeus Xrzistosz….
You have a very limited understanding of Self Inquiry……at least as expressed in this article…..
Which gives me pause to question your motives/agenda…..
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February 18, 2020 at 5:03 pm Edit
Red1963,
It’s not really helpful to say someone is wrong without explaining in what way and why.
To label others as wrong and denigrate their motives is not really a discussion it’s propaganda.
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Jonathan
February 18, 2020 at 5:19 pm Edit
Thank you so much this. I am grateful. Both for the interview and for the careful presentation of Katya’s response. I enjoyed Robert Adams’ book of satsangs very much at first. Then, one day, I remember reading something like “Ramana said he agreed with me 100%” and I thought, “That does not ring true in the least!” I went to the Robert Adams FB group and asked, as politely as I could, if there was any actual evidence that Adams had been in the ashram. Just asking the question — was like setting off a bomb! I was living in Tiruvannamalai at the time. I remember I sheepishly told a friend at Ramanasramam what I’d done and she began to laugh merrily and hooted, “Oh! You must never ask them that! That’s the question you must never ask!” I’m grateful that you have created a resource for people asking the same basic questions. Because it DOES matter. No one should be allowed to appropriate the lives of the great — or else I’m Indira Gandhi’s hairstylist! Thank you again. This is wise and brave and necessary.
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Red1963
February 18, 2020 at 6:03 pm Edit
Maybe it is not your motive or agenda that i am questioning…..
But i am puzzled….particularly by your criticism of Self Inquiry…..
There are many authentic ‘Spiritual Guides’ who successfully use Inquiry as a way of enabling their ‘students’ to realise: that they are not simply their bodies, their thoughts, their ego, their ‘I’ thought…that they are in fact the Being-Consciousness in which all things arise……
Authentic ‘Spiritual Guides’ such as Adyashanti or Scott Kiloby……
Or Pamela Wilson or Stuart Schwartz…..two wonderful teachers…..both of whom spent time hanging out with Robert…..
Hmm…..
Self Inquiry is particularly suited to our sceptical agnostic times…..
It even comes strongly recommended by one of America’s leading public intellectuals and all round committed atheist Sam Harris….
Of course there are dangers…people can start identifying as the one who knows he/she is Being-Consciousness-Bliss…..as the one who is enlightened….
But their are dangers in every path……
And if we allow ourselves to be governed by every possible pitfall….we will never do anything….
I suppose what i am saying here is that i would have found your criticisms of Robert even more convincing if you had shown a genuine appreciation for the living tradition of Self Inquiry…..
The living tradition of Self Inquiry of which he, Robert, was/is a part…..
Hmm…….
Speaking of was/is…..
He died over 20 years ago now…
So all of these reflections on his authenticity are kind of academic now….
Dead gurus don’t kick ass…..as Adi Da is alleged to have said…..
Hmm…
I was actually at his memorial service in Sedona….and well remember the son in law you speak of….singing a song about Robert going back to Jesus….
Much to the bemusement of the gathered ‘Advaita Hippies’…..
Me i liked it…i have always liked songs of devotion to the great master Jesus…
Hmm…..
Not really sure what to say….
As mentioned in my earlier post…i find your questioning and challenging of Robert’s spiritual biography entirely plausible…
So maybe i will end with a few questions and challenges of my own….
Is it possible that Robert could have been both liberated and a complete rogue….?
How do you explain the fact that genuine teachers such as the ones mentioned above were so profoundly positively affected by Robert?
How do you explain the very mysterious circumstances in which Ganesan, Ramana Maharshi’s great nephew, came to know about Robert?
How do you explain the fact that Rupert Spira another very fine teacher was prompted by a powerful dream of Robert to travel to Sedona to meet him?
How do you explain the fact that Papaji a very hard to please advaita teacher, read out transcripts of Robert’s talks at his Satsangs…?
Robert may not have walked the talk…but he certainly seems to have talked the talk…..
Of course if you believe that all the modern teachers of atma vichara are to quote you:
On a self-reflexive loop of the ego.
Just spending time focusing on themselves.
Glorifying the self-reflexive loop to the point they convince themselves they are Divine.
Narcissists who are extremely self-obsessedThen you probably wont consider the questions i have asked.
But if you are willing to put aside your beliefs….a central tenet of genuine Self Inquiry….i wonder what answers might bubble up from within….
Hmm….
For myself, although it saddens me that Robert seems not to have been an embodiment of the living truth, I am taking seriously what you have said and am letting it in….
Much Love,
X
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Gretel
February 18, 2020 at 7:27 pm Edit
Very interesting that he will not speak 30 years ago when he knew that Robert Adams was a fraud. And now it is very timely to bring to light the truth … because he did not speak before to help humanity of a narcissist ???
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February 18, 2020 at 7:33 pm Edit
Gretal,
Good question. I did talk about this but no one was listening. Before Katya Osborne’s emails no one would believe a nobody over a great highly recognized sage. Her emails kind of changed the dynamics of the discussion.
🙂
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Warwick Wakefield
April 30, 2020 at 4:28 am Edit
Robert Adams told people, tells people, what they want to hear.
He was undoubtedly a fraud, a liar, and a confidence man who defrauded his disciples to the tune of thousands and thousands of dollars.The “spiritual” realm is full of phonies, people like Rajneesh, who later adopted the alias of Osho.
These people have a type of eloquence, a type of poetic speech, but they are rotten through and through.Though Osho enacted his lunacy on the public stage, there are still today more than a hundred thousand Oshites around the world.
Adams had a similar ability to make things up as he went along, and now the gullible are flocking to him in their thousands, poor sods.
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February 18, 2020 at 7:28 pm Edit
Red1963,
Thanks for writing that. Very good points and questions. Hopefully when I get time I can go into this more deeply.
I am not criticizing self-inquiry. I am criticizing all “practices” and all second hand teachings.
To question and discover one’s own true nature is the most important thing in the world.
Do you do this by listening to what someone else discovered?
What they said about it?Holding onto the “I” feeling as a practice is not an attempt to discover anything. It just makes you good at holding onto the “I” feeling.
What is that still place in which all feelings including the “I” feeling comes and goes?
My opinion is, don’t look for anyone else’s answers.
As I see it, spiritual guides, including all the ones you mentioned, form a last containment fence in which someone thinks they have the answers, the truth, but all they have is someone else’s answers.
🙂
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February 18, 2020 at 8:38 pm Edit
Hi Red1963,
Is it possible that Robert could have been both liberated and a complete rogue….?
Yes, it is possible he was. It is also possible he wasn’t. It is said a realized person always tells the truth. Why? Because they don’t care how they appear to others. They have no agenda.How do you explain the fact that genuine teachers such as the ones mentioned above were so profoundly positively affected by Robert?
Many people were positively affected by Adi Da Free John, J. Krishnamurti, Chogyam Trungpa, Andrew Cohen, and many others all of whom had scandals. I’ve been positively affected by my next door neighbor too.How do you explain the very mysterious circumstances in which Ganesan, Ramana Maharshi’s great nephew, came to know about Robert?
I don’t know anything about that. That was way after my time of knowing Robert. Feel free to link to it or tell me about it.How do you explain the fact that Rupert Spira another very fine teacher was prompted by a powerful dream of Robert to travel to Sedona to meet him?
I’ve heard this regarding other people too. It seems to me all external searching for external answers has to come to an end. Maybe this was part of his process.How do you explain the fact that Papaji a very hard to please advaita teacher, read out transcripts of Robert’s talks at his Satsangs…?
I don’t know much about Papaji. It seems there were a lot of conflicting messages about him. I’ve heard that he told everyone they are enlightened just as they are. That could be a message that could be misconstrued, no?[Added question]. Why is reading Robert’s teachings any worse than watching a football game?
I suppose it’s not, — other than it gives people the illusion they are doing spiritual work when actually all they are doing is acquiring second hand information about someone else’s views. I say, put the books away. Put the quotes away. It may be time to metaphorically burn down the house.🙂
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February 19, 2020 at 5:01 pm Edit
I attended Henry’s gatherings in Hollywood often to sit in Robert’s Satsang. I enjoyed the gatherings very much. It was a very peaceful atmosphere. I would just sit and meditate while Robert spoke and then commingled afterwards. I do remember that night when the woman confronted him publicly about trying to kill her. He said something to the affect: “Who is there to kiss whom?” The old advaita shuffle that I have noticed in myself and others who follow the non-dual path. Henry became livid and kicked him right out. I am very sad to hear that the woman committed suicide.
For me it was another cautionary tale of the dangers of being a guru. One can rise high in consciousness, and offer a lot to others, but the snakes/vasanas are still there, and unless you are honest, and face them, and not get hung up with the definition that you are enlightened, when you fall, you can get back up. But if you deny that you even fell, that you did whatever for the benefit of others (like so many gurus do with their pants down) then you will wallow in a pit of deception.
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February 19, 2020 at 6:13 pm Edit
janakastagnaro,
Thanks for reporting this. I wasn’t there but heard it from several people. I think you mean “kiss” and not “kill.”If you can remember any other details please post them. What did Henry actually say? Did the whole group leave? Were there many there? What did you all do when you left the house, just go home? Did a number of people stop attending after that incident? Where did the group meet next?
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February 20, 2020 at 12:24 am Edit
Oops, although it did end up as a kill. I do not remember much as it is all murky in the mists of time. I can see Henry stand up and lividly confront Robert. I do not recall what he said. Usually there would be 20-50 people there if I recall correctly. I think there may have been a general dispersal. I was not shocked or outraged as I have sat with many a teacher who have fallen in one way or the other. It was like, “Oh, well.” I never returned to Henry’s. Nearby was the Vedanta Temple that was more inviting to me to sit in the silence and listen to the droning of vespers.
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Red1963
February 19, 2020 at 9:34 pm Edit
Hi again Steven,
Thanks for your responses to my rambling piece….
I am now going to try and respond…i hope respectfully….to what you said…..
For the sake of clarity i have put an S in front of your quotes (slightly mashed up….sorry) and an R in front of my response…..
S: To question and discover one’s own true nature is the most important thing in the world
R: Agreed…..!
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S: Do you do this by listening to what someone else discovered? What they said about it?R: No you don’t get this by just listening to what someone else discovered…..
Well certainly not in my case….
The realisation of my true nature occurred while engaging in Inquiry while in the presence of a ‘teacher’ who was established in his true nature…
Or the one True Nature……
Reading and listening to others talk about spirituality served to awaken my interest and discern what my path might be….
But not much more than that…..
S: Holding onto the “I” feeling as a practice is not an attempt to discover anything…..
R: It has been a long time since i read any of Robert’s transcripts….but i am pretty sure he spoke about more than just holding onto the ‘I’ feeling…..
But on this point….having a sense of the ‘I’ feeling and knowing that this ‘I’ arises in the beingness of your true nature can be of value…..
S: What is that still place in which all feelings including the “I” feeling comes and goes?
R: Yes….what is that still place…..?
That is the heart of the matter……
S: My opinion is, don’t look for anyone else’s answers.
R: My opinion is: many of us for a time may need someone…a teacher…..who can help guide us to our own inner wisdom…
Or as i believe Ramana Maharshi put it: the external guru comes into a person’s life to point to that person’s inner guru…..
S: As I see it, spiritual guides, including all the ones you mentioned, form a last containment fence in which someone thinks they have the answers, the truth, but all they have is someone else’s answers.
R: I don’t really agree with this…..
I feel confident that most of the teachers/guides i have sat with over the years have been speaking from their own direct experience of what you call: that immovable still point that has never changed amidst all of the comings and goings of life….
That they have not been spouting someone else’s answers…..
And that they can help ‘others’ discover that immovable still point for themselves….
Further you yourself in the article above speak favourably of Bernadette Roberts….
Was she not an authentic guide for you…?
Someone who spoke from her True Nature and helped you find your True Nature….
The one True Nature….
S: It is said a realised person always tells the truth.
R: My understanding is that a realised person doesn’t always necessarily tell the truth….
And that they can care about how they appear to others…..
True Nature is ever perfect but the conditioned body mind can act out in a myriad of peculiar ways…..
And so i would hold that the likes of Da Free John, J. Krishnamurti, Chogyam Trungpa and Andrew Cohen, were/are, in all likelihood, liberated but that their body mind conditioning was/is messed up…..
Leading to all those scandals….
S: Rupert Spira’s process: it seems to me all external searching for external answers has to come to an end.
R: I would agree that, yes, all external searching has to come to an end….
And that Rupert Spira being prompted by a powerful dream to travel to meet Robert was part of his external search…
And i would add that i don’t think the fact that Rupert had this dream in anyway proves that Robert was liberated…..
However i think Rupert’s external search was actually a search for internal answers…..
Internal answers that became clear to him with the aid of his teacher Francis Lucille….
S: Papaji’s message could be misconstrued?
R: Yes it seems Papaji was indeed a wild teacher……
So who knows how we should construe him having Robert’s transcripts read out at his Satsangs…?
S: Why is reading Robert’s teachings any worse than watching a football game?
R: I am not sure that it is….
Hmm……
Curiously over the last 20 years or so i have now and then recommended people do all sorts of things: TM meditation; mindfulness meditation; vipassana retreats; The Work of Byron Katie; 12 Step Programs; yogic breathing; etc; etc…
I have even on rare occasions suggested that people attend a Non-Dual Satsang…very rare occasions…most people don’t seem to take to Satsang…..
But i have never ever recommended anyone read Robert’s teachings…..
Nor have i read them myself…..
All of which makes me wonder why on earth i am responding to your post about him……?
Hmm…..
Maybe it’s because Robert was the first western teacher that i ever happened upon…..
His salty New York accent….man i loved his voice…helped make the teachings of Ramana Maharshi accessible…..
As i listened to his recordings the teachings stopped being the preserve of dead Indians….
And instead they became available now….
Alive in that most contemporary of forms:
A hip….
Effortlessly cool….
New York wise guy…..
Red
🙂
PS….not now…but at some point, if you still want, i will relay the story that Ganesan told a group of us of how he came to know about Robert…
Not that that story will prove anything….
It is just a story……
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notsofast
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February 21, 2020 at 10:45 pm Edit
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Mr. Stouth says that Joel Goldsmith was preaching in NY until 1953 and would have been after Robert supposedly went to India. However, Mr. Goldsmith was in NY from 1928 until 1944 as a member of the Christian Science Church and would have garnered a pretty big reputation by that time. In 1944 he moved to Boston. Robert was born in 1928 and was supposed to have met with Goldsmith when he was 16 which would have been 1944. So it is possible he could have met with Goldsmith.
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existence1010
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February 22, 2020 at 8:57 am Edit
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Hi notsofast,
Robert told me that he went to Joel Goldsmith seminars and talked to Joel after the seminar about his experiences. I am not sure what he said in the transcripts. I contacted the Joel Goldsmith Institute and they said Joel gave his first seminar in New York in 1953. I’m pasting the email below along with a part from Joel’s bio saying he moved to Boston in in the early 1930’s and then to Florida ten years later, and then to California. -
“By the early 1930’s he was successful enough in this method of practice to marry Rose Robb and take on the support of her two children.
The new family relocated to Boston, where one of the children planned to attend Harvard University. Again,[after]… having served for ten years as a Christian Science practitioner in Boston, Goldsmith decided to move to Florida with his wife, who died shortly thereafter. Following a brief return to Boston, Goldsmith was persuaded by friends to move to California. -
In the mid-1940s, Goldsmith’s periods of meditation began to be the loci of a series of spiritual experiences he termed “initiations,” some of which culminated in “ordination”: conscious union with God. During a visit to Zürich, Switzerland in November of 1954, he reached the zenith of his mystical experience in a transfiguration-style event he called becoming “Christed.” ”
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https://www.lib.uchicago.edu/e/scrc/findingaids/view.php?eadid=ICU.SPCL.GOLDSMITH
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—–Original Message—–
From: Steven Strouth
Sent: Sunday, February 16, 2020 5:14 AM
To: info@joelgoldsmith.com
Subject: Hi from me -
For some very important research I am doing I need to know in what years Joel Goldsmith gave lectures in NYC. That is I need to know the date of his earliest seminar there. Was it 1954?
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Thank you.
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Steven
Victor Ropac
Mon, Feb 17, 2020 at 9:00 PM
To:[…..]@gmail.com
Reply | Reply to all | Forward | Print | Delete | Show original -
Steven,
The earliest was in 1953.
Vic Ropac -
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notsofast
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February 22, 2020 at 12:14 am Edit
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red1963, i’d like to hear the story of V. Ganesan and Robert that you referred to in your post.
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finder
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February 22, 2020 at 5:37 am Edit
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In his book Ramana Periya Purinam which has individual chapters on 75 “old devotees”, V. Ganesan tells of his meeting with Robert Adams, so you could read it there in V. Ganesan’s own words starting on page 434. The book can be downloaded for free from the AHAM website at https://www.aham.com/RamanaPeriyaPuranam/ and includes chapters on the well known devotees of Ramana Maharshi, and has lots of photographs of the Maharshi and those disciples covered in the book. This book is a delicious feast of the spirit for those who love the Maharshi and his teaching.
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Red1963
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February 22, 2020 at 5:49 pm Edit
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Yes https://www.aham.com/RamanaPeriyaPuranam/ does contain the basic account of how Ganesan came to know of Robert Adams….
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Yet as i remember it Ganesan emphasised how mysterious it was that a woman in a crowded airport should single him out….a random Indian…to talk to him about a guy called Robert Adams who claimed to be a Self Inquiry/Advaita teacher and a direct disciple of Sri Ramana Maharshi….
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Why mysterious….?
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Well as we all know: India is a massive country….many millions of people live there…
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However not many of them are that interested in Self Inquiry/Advaita teaching….
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Or Self Inquiry/Advaita teachers…..
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Indeed when i travelled in India just over 20 years ago none of the many people i spoke to before i got to Tiruvanamalai had even heard of Ramana Maharshi….or Arunachala….
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Even now, living in the UK, i have often had cause to show the picture of Ramana i keep in my wallet to the many lovely pious Hindus i meet as i go about my daily business…and none of them….NOT ONE….has ever said: oh i know him that’s Ramana Maharshi…
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So anyway…..
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This woman approaches a random Indian bloke in a crowded busy airport in Los Angeles….about her teacher: an American Self Inquiry/Advaita disciple of Sri Ramana Maharshi…..
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And boy does she hit the Jackpot…!
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Because Ganesan turns out to not just be interested in Advaita and knowledgeable about Self Inquiry….
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Not just to be involved in the management of Sri Ramanasramam…and editor of Mountain Path….a magazine devoted to spreading Ramana’s teachings of Self Inquiry….
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He also just happens to be the one person on the planet whose actual Sadhana….as given him by Mataji Krishna Bai a realized saint…is to take care of the old devotees of Sri Ramana….
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Hmm…..
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Some coincidence……
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Now maybe there is some perfectly rational explanation for all this….
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There often are rational explanations for strange events…..
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Or maybe it was just an extraordinary fluke….
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Not very probable….methinks….
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Or maybe maybe there was around Robert, for whatever reason, a ‘spiritual energy’ that enabled such synchronistic events to take place……
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That enabled seekers to have visions, and experiences of deep peace and emptiness…..
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That encouraged a Master as fierce as Papaji to read out transcripts of Robert’s talks at his Satsangs….
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Om Shanti Shanti Shanti….
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Om Peace Peace Peace…….
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existence1010
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February 22, 2020 at 7:53 pm Edit
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Hi Red1963,
If you’re going to use that to verify that Robert Adams was somehow at Ramana Ashram, we’re going to be here a long time. -
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Red1963
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February 22, 2020 at 10:21 pm Edit
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I wasn’t using it to verify that Robert Adams was at Ramana Ashram….
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I told my version of how Ganesan met Robert because you had said earlier: feel free to link to it or tell me about it…..and notsofast had said: i’d like to hear the story of V. Ganesan and Robert that you referred to in your post……
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Hmm……
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Also i suppose telling this story was another way of suggesting that while Robert may have been a rogue….he might also, at the same time, have been liberated and a powerful communicator of truth…
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Because for me the issue here isn’t simply: did Robert meet Ramana….?
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The issue is: was Robert a genuinely awakened being capable of transmitting the truth or was he a complete and utter fraud….?
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I suspect from everything you have said above that you think Robert was a complete and utter fraud…
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I further suspect from what you have said, and not said in reply to me that you think most contemporary western teachers of Self Inquiry are not the genuine article either. They are, to quote you:
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On a self-reflexive loop of the ego.
Just spending time focusing on themselves.
Glorifying the self-reflexive loop to the point they convince themselves they are Divine.
Narcissists who are extremely self-obsessed
People who think they have the answers, the truth, but all they have is someone else’s answers. -
Now maybe i misunderstand….
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Maybe these aren’t your views of contemporary western Non-Dual/Self Inquiry teachers….
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And if i do misunderstand…please feel free to correct me….
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I’d love to know that you hold such teachers in high esteem….
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For the record let me say i greatly respect most of the contemporary western Non-Dual/Satsang teachers that i have sat with….
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However given everything you have said: i am now not at all sure about the genuineness of Robert Adams….
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existence1010
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February 23, 2020 at 3:48 pm Edit
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Hi Red1963,
I think everyone is worthy of our respect. I think we can learn from everyone. My intention is not to disrespect Robert Adams. -
I just thought I had some information that people should have the freedom to know.
For everyone to just be sincere and genuine, that’s the best we can do. -
I don’t know where anyone else is at subjectively. Robert’s idea to look in the mirror and tell yourself, “I am Brahman,” seems misconceived, but maybe some like it.
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To constantly dwell in the “I” feeling, when it is just one more thing that comes and goes and not what is always there, also seems misconceived, but maybe some like it. It’s all fine with me.
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Red1963
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February 24, 2020 at 8:43 pm Edit
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Well actually Steven…
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I dont think you have been that respectful….
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You describe contemporary Western Satsang teachers as people who are:
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On a self-reflexive loop of the ego.
Just spending time focusing on themselves.
Glorifying the self-reflexive loop to the point they convince themselves they are Divine.
Narcissists who are extremely self-obsessed
People who think they have the answers, the truth, but all they have is someone else’s answers. -
This seems to me a very negative and disrespectful characterisation of teachers who are providing a wonderful service: that of guiding ‘others’ to a realisation of their true nature….
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Why do i keep banging on about this: well quite simply, given that you have such a negative and distorted view of people i know and trust, how can i be sure your views of Robert aren’t equally distorted….?
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Further your reduction of the many wonderful pointers that emerged from the mouth of Robert to the two you casually mention above is also, in my view, disrespectful…..
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I wouldn’t feel it is right to hold forth on…say…the subject of Islam….without at least having read The Koran….
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But you seem to think it is ok to hold forth on Robert’s teaching without ever having read a transcript….
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Given that you are so obsessed with the right action of others: don’t you think you could afford us this basic courtesy…?
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Hmm…
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Well why don’t i give you a little taste of what you might find if you ever put aside your, maybe understandable, prejudice and prised open one of those transcripts……?
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As Glenn said: someone can study Advaita for 50 years and know it all like the back of their hands and still not be able to talk about it as he did…effortlessly….spontaneously….naturally….week after week after week after week…..
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He didn’t think about what to say. He did no planning. He didn’t write and read little speeches. He just opened his mouth and the Self did the talking…..
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I can still remember the first words i heard him speak, nearly 25 years ago now, on a cassette player in a retreat house somewhere in the South of England…
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‘There are no problems….
There never have been any problems…
There never will be any problems…..
There are no problems….’ -
They had quite an impact….
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It wasn’t just what he said…it was the way he said it…in this deeply rhythmical, down to earth, New York tone…
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Cooler than Marlyn Brando in his pomp…..
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Even now these phrases bubble up as a kind of soothing mantra…..
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And they have a power because mysteriously contained within them is the true nature of existence….
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There are indeed….
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No problems….
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Who’d have thought….?
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The next few lines he said were equally powerful:
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‘One of the most important qualities to cultivate on the the spiritual life is Divine Ignorance…
We all go around thinking we know this and that we know that….
But in truth we don’t know a damn thing about what is going on in this world….
Knowing you don’t know: that’s divine ignorance…..
But thinking you know….well that’s just plain ignorance…..’ -
Man i can’t tell you how blown away i was by that….his delivery….particularly the use of the words damn and plain ignorance…
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At last i thought….a contemporary….someone using my language….
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No more of the fake piety of Holy Catholic Ireland…
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But it wasn’t just the vividness with which he expressed himself….it was the timelessness of what he said…..
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Know you know nothing….
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Hmm….
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He used to recommend that students reflect on, or ponder as he used to say, just one paragraph from a transcript each week…
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I never had the discipline to do this……
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But could you imagine if you did…
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Seriously pondered…
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Knowing that you don’t know….
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For a week….
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Mind stopping: that is what it would be…..
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If you really don’t know…What have you to say….? What opinions do you have to hold…? All begins to dissolve into the mystery of now….
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So there: a couple of pointers that i got in my first 10 minutes of listening to Robert….
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And there are many more such in his transcripts….
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So yes, i repeat, you reducing all of that down to the two you casually mention above was not in my estimation….respectful….
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Not content with knowing very little about what is in Robert’s transcripts you seem pretty certain that you are very knowledgeable about his sex life….
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You say it is pure nonsense that Nisargadatta Maharaj would be ok with Robert Adams sexual relationships with his followers…..
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But you can’t know that….see pointer above about Divine Ignorance…..
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Nisargadatta’s most famous devotee and spiritual son, Ramesh Balsekar got himself involved in a sex scandal towards the end of his life….
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Can you really say that Nisargadatta would have condemned Ramesh for his behaviour….?
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Here is Jean Dunn, a well regarded Nisargadatta devotee, quoting Nisargadatta:
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‘As long as you think you are a person and this world is real, then you live by certain rules. Once you understand the complete thing, your life lives itself…there are no rules, no good, no bad, no I should do this, no I shouldn’t do that.’
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Furthermore you really really can’t know what Robert’s intimate relationships were like…
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You can’t know that they were exploitative….
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You weren’t in the room…..
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I presume……
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On a more general note i have to confess that i am slightly allergic to people imposing their sexual moral world view on others…..
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I grew up in a country where the only element of spiritual life that was discussed was the element of sexual continence….
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And look at the good it did us….
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Scandal after scandal brought on by sexually repressed priests assaulting young people in their charge….
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And i am not sure that the India of Nisargadatta is such a paragon of sexual maturity….
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I remember, when there, kissing my girl friend in public…..and a very lovely lady thanked us and said: ‘you know we Indians are too puritanical…and we should become more relaxed about showing physical affection in public….’
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Robert Adams lived through the sexual revolutions of the 1960s….
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Where large numbers of men and women, thanks to the pill, freely explored their sexuality…maybe for the first time in history….
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Were there/are there problems with this culture….?
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Yes of course….
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And the MeToo movement is a very necessary corrective to those problems…..
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But i am confident that the permissive sexual culture that has emerged since the 1960s, where people can have multiple partners and can explore a great range of sexual impulses, where gay men and gay women and transgender people can be relaxed and open about who they are…is many times more moral than the sexually repressive culture my parents were raised in in the 1940s….
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And probably more sexually moral than most other traditional cultures as well…..
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And so to money….
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Why didn’t you let him charge for Satsang…?
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What else is he going to do….?
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We live in the post modern capitalist west….
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Not in pre-modern feudal Tibet…
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Charging for services rendered is how we do it…
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Or maybe you want us to go back to those feudal times….
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In which case lets reintroduce Tithing….10% of all you earn to your local church….
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Did you give 10% of your income to Robert when you were attempting to be his student…?
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Personally I have never had a problem with teachers charging. Indeed the traditional Indian culture, that says teachers shouldn’t charge, seems to me to have a less healthy relationship to money than the Western culture where charging is the norm…..
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Many of the wonderful teachers who have shared their ‘understanding’ with me have only been able to do so because funded by donations……
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I have benefited from them being able to teach full time….so have benefited from them charging…..
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Hmm…
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I am going to close by quoting from an edited letter by Suri Nagamma about Sri Ramana written on 26 Feb 1947….
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But before i do i would just like to point out that i have, over the years, read a reasonable number of books and articles about Sri Ramana…
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Yet in all this time i have never come across an article in which he speaks at length on sexual morality or financial impropriety….
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Not saying he didn’t speak about that sort of stuff…
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It is just that i haven’t stumbled across it…..
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However just the other night i happened upon the letter below in which he is rather critical of a young man who presumes to criticise….gurus…..
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Question: Isn’t a Guru necessary to know even that?
Bhagavan: That is true. The world contains many great men. Look upon him as your Guru with whom your mind gets attuned. The one in whom you have faith is your Guru.
The youth was not satisfied. He started with a list of great men now living, and said, “He has that defect; he has this defect. How can they be looked upon as Gurus?”
Bhagavan tolerates any amount of decrying of himself, but cannot tolerate even a little fault-finding of others.
He said with some impatience, “Oho! you have been asked to know your own self, but instead you have started finding fault with others. It is enough if you correct your own faults. Those people can take care of their faults. It looks as if they cannot attain salvation unless they obtain your certificate first. That is a great pity! They are all waiting for your certificate. You are a great man. Have they any salvation unless you approve of them? Here you blame them, elsewhere you will blame us. You know everything, whereas we know nothing, and we have to be submissive towards you. Yes! we shall do so. You go and please proclaim, ‘I went to Ramanasramam; I asked the Maharshi some questions; he was unable to reply properly, so he does not know anything.
He is going to search the whole world and decide the Guru swarupa for himself. It seems he has not so far found anybody with the requisite qualifications for being his Guru.”
Bhagavan said all this in a resounding voice and then remained silent. -
Hmm…..
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So maybe there is another moral code that needs to be considered in all of this…..
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The moral code that says it is appropriate to speak respectfully of those that are attempting to guide others to The Divinity of Their Original Face…..
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Finally finally i hope i haven’t caused offence with how i have expressed myself……
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Or bored anyone by the length of the post….
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Wishing everyone who reads this…..
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And everyone who doesn’t…..
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Much Peace…..
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X
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existence1010
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February 24, 2020 at 9:44 pm Edit
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Red1963,
There is a big difference between being respectful toward someone’s views and opinions and being respectful toward them. -
In this post you have not been respectful toward my views, but you have been very respectful toward me. I love that. I enjoy your posts. Trash my opinions all over… that’s good, that’s healthy. We can all do that and still be respectful toward each other. I feel like we’re great friends. 🙂
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Red1963
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February 24, 2020 at 10:36 pm Edit
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Hi Steven,
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Thank you for your post below…where you said that i had been very respectful toward you…..
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I don’t seem to be able to reply to it…..
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So i am replying to this one….
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Really appreciate what you said…..
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Curiously about 10 minutes ago, probably more or less when you were typing in ‘i feel like we are great friends’ i had this tremendous sense of warmth towards you….i even mentioned it to my partner…..and used your first name with real affection……
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May you have a wonderful and restful night…
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Or day….
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Whatever time it is wherever you are…….
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Glenn R. Danforth
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February 23, 2020 at 9:39 am Edit
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This was posted yesterday in the two Robert Adams’ Facebook groups:
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I have now read 3/4 of his 2,300 page collection of nearly every word he spoke in the ’90s (SPONTANEOUSLY) at his bi-weekly satsangs (followed by Q&As) and to me his is by far the greatest Advaita “teacher” ever. Not that he’s more advanced than others but because his teachings are incredibly crisp and clear and easy to grasp. Because I am bed-ridden and can’t physically be with a teacher, that book (along with those of Ramana and Nisargadatta) served as my own guru. Any question I ever had was answered by Robert Adams in that book, and I am deeply indebted to Ed Muzica (and others) for all the work they did to make that gem available.
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On top of that, after reading thousands and thousands of Adams’ words, I haven’t found anything he said — nothing — that I question or disagree with or, more importantly, greats such as Ramana Maharshi and Nisargadatta disagree with.. I have gathered hundreds of quotes from the book and shared them every nearly every day on Facebook and have hundreds of “friends,” most of whom are at some stage of awakening, and I get more than 100 “likes” for nearly every one that I post. Besides that I have had very many post comments saying things like “Thank you for introducing me to Robert Adams.” They recognize great teaching and love what he shared. I get messages from dozens of people asking me spiritual questions and my standard reply is that I I’m not a teacher but that any question they could ever ask is answered in that book, which I then attach to my response.
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As for questions about Robert’s “alleged” behavior, I tell them that everything that happens in life is preordained and is a result of karma, and “outer” behavior is no indication of “spiritual” status, as shown by many such as Osho and Adi Da. “Robert” was not the doer. “Robert” came here with a detailed “script,” just like all of us, and no matter what his inner spiritual status was, his “body” did whatever “God” (Self) had it do. His validity as a teacher had NOTHING to do with anything “the body” ever did.
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Ramana Maharshi once explained that by saying that Adolf Hitler could have been a jnani. Behavior is meaningless even though the “mind” finds that hard to accept. I don’t care about “Robert” the man, but I love the teachings and know they came from the lips of a jnani as they perfectly matched those of Ramana, Nisargadatta and Papaji. And everything he said was said spontaneously. He didn’t think about what to say. He did no planning. He didn’t write and read little speeches. He just opened his mouth and the Self did the talking. Christians love to say that the Bible is the word of God (that has been changed a million times by countless human minds) but Robert’s book is just that and none of it has been changed by anyone. It’s all straight from the source.
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Someone can study Advaita for 50 years so they know it all like the back of their hands and they still could not talk about it and respond the way he did to an avalanche of questions. He once said that he sometimes, with certain people who needed it (he said “who weren’t yet baked”), he would do all sorts of things or say many contradictory things, just to mess with their mind so it would help trigger their awakening. Was that true or just covering his ass? I have no idea, but I have absolutely no doubt at all that he was highly (fully) realized and that those who “need” to see this will see it and those who don’t, won’t. Robert even covered THAT when he said that we are always attracted to the teacher we need at the time (someone had asked him why so many people followed obvious charlatans).
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If you are attracted to Robert take that as a great sign because those who aren’t ready for Truth will cling to the idea that his actions negate his teachings. Not everybody is ready,
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existence1010
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February 23, 2020 at 1:09 pm Edit
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Glenn,
You said you haven’t found anything in Robert Adams teachings Nisargadatta Maharaj would disagree with. -
Over the years, Nisargadatta himself issued frequent warnings in his conversations not to succumb to pride, body-based desires, exploitation of others, hypocrisy, ambition, needless complications in one’s lifestyle and relationships, and so forth.
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Sri Nisargadatta in his own way would often echo the well-known counsels of his Guru, Sri Siddharmamesvar, “Realize the Self and behave accordingly!” “Use this Self-Power in the right way.”
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To suggest Nisargadatta Maharaj would somehow overlook Robert Adams’ lies, hypocrisy, sexual exploitations of his followers, and “borrowing” without paying back… that is pure nonsense.
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finder
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February 24, 2020 at 9:44 am Edit
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Glenn, you are taking a piece of what is most likely to a misquote of Ramana Maharshi (according to David Godman, see below), out of context, to make a point, in regards to your writing that Ramana said that “Hitler could have been a jnani.” I’ve heard this quote from Major Chadwick used before to justify all sorts of outrageous and selfish activities. It was taken from Major Chadwick’s book, “A Sadhu’s Reminisences”. Someone named “Snow” wrote to David Godman and asked him about this reported quote of Ramana’s, and posted it on a forum:
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“I asked David Godman about Bhagavan’s reported comment on Hitler.
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In Major Chadwick’s book A Sadhu’s Reminiscences, Chadwick writes: “Of course he (Ramana Maharshi) was quite unmoved by the war and its course. Probably he saw it as just another turn in the wheel of Karma. He is reported to have remarked once, “Who knows but that Hitler is a Jnani, a divine instrument”
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I would very much like to hear your opinion on this. Do you think that it’s a mis-translation, taken out of context, false all together or an authentic statement made by Sri Bhagavan? To me the sentence doesn’t make sense because the beginning of the clause “Who knows” implies that Sri Bhagavan doesn’t know for sure if Hitler is a jnani, but the end of the sentence clearly says that Hitler is a jnani. Linguistically the sentence would make more sense if it said: “Who knows if that Hitler is a Jnani, a divine instrument. Also I think that a jnani and “a divine instrument” cannot be synonyms because the jnani is the Self/God, not an instrument of Him.”
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This is David Godman’s reply:
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“From the qualifying introductory words of Bhagavan’s sentence (‘Who knows but that…’) he might have been saying (assuming the quotation is even true) that the possibility can’t be discounted, which is a long way from saying, ‘Yes, he is a jnani’. It may have been part of a conversation in which some devotee was trying to challenge Bhagavan about his statement that you can’t tell who is or who is not a jnani by what they do or say, and this might have been included as an extreme example.
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The phrase ‘divine instrument’ also gives it some context. We are all divine instruments, according to Bhagavan, in so far as we have a script to perform that was handed to us by God. By giving Hitler this script he (Hitler, not God) in effect became the agent for enabling millions of people to fulfill some karmic destiny. If millions of people have an earned destiny to suffer and die in a particular era, then someone else has to incarnate alongside them with the karma of being the instigator of that suffering. That’s a long way from saying he was a jnani; it is just an acceptance that certain things needed to happen for everyone in that era, and that Hitler had the karma to make it happen. Everyone involved was an actor on the stage, playing out a script that had been written and allocated by God, a script that each person involved had somehow individually earned through past actions.
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Bhagavan taught that each of us has a predestined script that has been allocated by Iswara, and that He chooses the sequence of the script from among all the pending karma from millions of lives. The jnani is the one who can go through the script knowing ‘I am not this person who is performing these actions’. Everyone else identifies with the actor on the stage and suffers as if the script is real.
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Personally, I doubt that Hitler was a jnani, and I doubt that Bhagavan ever said that he was. In his whole life he never once went on record as certifying that someone was alive who was a jnani. His mother and Lakshmi the cow got posthumous certification. I am guessing that we are dealing here with a garbled, misrendered, and second-hand (at least) account.” – Best Wishes David Godman
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https://www.quora.com/What-does-Ramana-Maharishi-say-about-Hitler
http://www.arunachala-ramana.org/forum/index.php?topic=6021.30 -
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Glenn R. Danforth
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February 23, 2020 at 3:31 pm Edit
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“Over the years, Nisargadatta himself issued frequent warnings in his conversations not to succumb to pride, body-based desires, exploitation of others, hypocrisy, ambition, needless complications in one’s lifestyle and relationships, and so forth.”
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And where did Robert ever teach that you SHOULD do those things? I said that Robert’s TEACHINGS were the same as Nisargadatta. If you want to say that is wrong then go into Robert’s 2,300 pages of talks and quote me where he said otherwise. Don’t try to twist things to counter what I wrote.
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You claim that Robert did things that countered Nisargadatta’s teachings. If true, that has nothing to do with what Robert taught, I made it very clear that Robert’s words were the words of a jnani. If you’d like to counter that then show me the words that prove his TEACHINGS were different than Nisargadatta’s.
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existence1010
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February 23, 2020 at 6:53 pm Edit
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Show me where Ramana or Nisargadatta told people to look in the mirror and repeat, “I am Brahman,” at their reflection.
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Jan
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March 4, 2020 at 7:51 pm Edit
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Dear Steven,
If you had devoted just a bit to actually understand Robert’s teachings, you would understand the context: -
First of all, no where in Robert’s teachings he advises one to affirm that body is Brahman. In the recorded teachings and transcripts he absolutely condemned the image others had of himself, ie he condemned his ‘body’.
He never-ever said to think of body as Brahman. The meaning of the above practice is to disregard the body. In essence, if you have a feeling of who you truly are, you stand in front of mirror and affirm it, by completely disregarding body. This is what this practice is about. This is Self-Inquiry in different form. ‘I-Am the body’ notion is the whole samsara. -
I’ve been listening to his recordings for about 4-5 years daily and nowhere(In all the recordings) have I heard him being egomanic or having an improper attitude.
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Glenn R. Danforth
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February 23, 2020 at 4:24 pm Edit
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Steven:
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I’m curious, what exactly motivated you, a quarter century after Robert died, to come forward and share all kinds of accusations designed to destroy the reputation of a teacher who is loved by many people? What do you get out of seeing the pain your words cause many people? Or, to be more precise, what is the reason that your mind gives you for all this?
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After you published this I heard about it from multiple sources including a couple of women who were terribly upset and in tears because the teacher they adored was suddenly being portrayed as a monster. If you read the 125+ comments on my post from last you’ll see the one lady who said she was so happy to read my defense of Robert that she was crying as she typed.
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As I read that I couldn’t stop wondering what it was that you got out of posting this that you felt made causing people pain to be worth it. Could you please explain to me what it was that compelled you to try to destroy the image of a much beloved spiritual teacher?
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existence1010
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February 23, 2020 at 5:36 pm Edit
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Hi Glenn,
I go into that question in Part 2. Stay tuned. -
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Glenn R. Danforth
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February 23, 2020 at 5:38 pm Edit
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Great! I look forward to it.
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Warwick Wakefield
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April 30, 2020 at 4:54 am Edit
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You don’t have much respect for truth, do you?
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Chris
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February 23, 2020 at 8:00 pm Edit
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If you stand infront the mirror and affairm to yourself with devotion and feeling that “i am brahman” which is another name for god, its like saying i am love, i love myself and so forth.
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It can be one of the most potent spiritual practices if you have love u might see the teacher in your own eyes.
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My own guru made the small group i was in do this, since there was a mirror wall in the room.
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At the time i was young and all in my head it felt very awkward and weird looking into my eyes saying this.
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I did not understand.
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Instead of condemning this, try it for yourself instead. What do you see there? Can you stand looking into your own depths?
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Clearly robert left a lot of people with a bitter after taste, this is the whole point with the real teacher. Hes not your friend, he takes up all the junk to the surface for you. Most ppl cant stand that. took me a long time to see this myself. I was petrified seeing him in the beginning and tried to find every excuse not to go.
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But i never looked for a guru or anything and knew nothing about spirituality.
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Life has its funny ways and the average person will always quarell among themselves over the appearance.
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I am eternally grateful for your work Robert.
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Dave
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February 24, 2020 at 12:19 am Edit
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It’s stunning the drama this guys point of view is causing people. Seems to be a LOT of attachment to a dead guys teachings, realized or not. I guess it explains how Christians, Jews, Muslims, Democrats and Republicans can go on hating each other just because someone has a differant opinion of matters. You step on a persons religion and they get triggered. The interesting thing is, that not one of us who has read the article will ever really know for sure what the truth is. We’ll make up stories, find supporting evedence and all such things to ‘prove’ to ourselves how correct we are and how wrong the other guy is. I loved Robert Adams ‘Silence of the Heart’. Read it numerous times and had it on my nightstand for 5+ years AND maybe he was a scoundrel, who knows, who cares. I look at the teachings and not the teacher. Now if he were still ‘alive’ today I’d look into it more but he’s gone. Live the Truth. Robert certainly doesn’t care.
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Josh Romero
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February 24, 2020 at 3:56 am Edit
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The fact is that Robert was not real Ramana nor Nisargadatta and neither are you.
The world is an illusion. In reality nothing is happening. There is no one. Nothing has ever happened or ever will. -
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Uncle Zhuang
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February 24, 2020 at 2:57 pm Edit
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This is where you realize: mountains are not mountains, rivers are not rivers…
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Liked by you
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janakastagnaro
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February 24, 2020 at 4:45 pm Edit
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I think some of the angst I am hearing on this thread comes down to the issue of guru versus guide. One of the problems I see is the Eastern notion of Guru equals God. If you are God whatever you say or do must fit that model of Perfection. If you are a guide, pointing at a facet of The Great Mystery, then you are just that. And you will have your flaws to be called out on. There is too much glamour on being a guru. Does not allow for critical thinking, a tool to be used in this relative world. Ramakrishna would encourage testing the guru, to see if he was free of sex and money. I would recommend playing the Leela game, by Harish Johari, which is the ancient esoteric game of knowledge that Snakes and Ladders was derived from. Basically Consciousness appears to play in this Leela, going up and down the 8 levels of Consciousness. Just for the joy of it. Now, the higher you go the more snakes there are. When you are in the 3rd level you are in the realm of saints. But this is only the 3rd level! When you get to the 7th there are these rather large snakes that will pull you all the way down. They are called Egotism, Nullity and Tamas (inertia). For me this has been very insightful having experienced wonderful blessings from various teachers, and then seeing many “fall” in various ways (but usually sex and money). I also recommend watching Kumare, who is an American Indian who pretends to come from India as a famous guru. His followers have many wonderful experiences, and worship the ground he walks on. And then he later tells the shattering truth. It is a reminder that teachers are just beautiful bones in the cremation grounds that we chew on, and the juiciness is actually derived from our own gums. Respectfully
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janakastagnaro
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February 24, 2020 at 6:41 pm Edit
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A saintly looking man, dressed in flowing white robes, garlands of flowers strung around his neck, sat cross-legged on a platform. Around him sat a group of devotees, adoration beaming out of their eyes. Some waved incense about him and most of them wore medallions around their necks with pictures of this man. They bathed in this holy man’s radiance.
More and more followers came and sat at his feet, bowing, reaching out to perhaps touch his robe. With each new arrival the man’s chest seemed to puff out the slightest bit, his chin rising a tad higher.
“Oi!” I heard Yama mutter behind me. “Here it comes.”
Suddenly an enormous serpent rose up from the floor. No one, not even the holy man, noticed the immense snake. Then with a lightening-fast strike, the beast swallowed the holy man whole. Only a few in the crowd seemed to notice that the man had disappeared, and with disgust on their face, these few departed.
The others, however, remained, looking with devoted eyes at the place where the man had sat, some even reaching out towards his imaginary gown.
“What happened?” I asked, shaken at what I saw, and confused by the devotees’ response.
“I saw it coming. He chose to have around him a bunch of followers, those types that want to be told what to do with every aspect of their lives. They want to be ‘devotees’ and wear outrageous outfits and create a new movement or religion, in which they can climb upward in status, to be one of the inner circle.
“They desire neither love nor truth, only specialness. Each vie to have special attention from the light.
“And because he had that seed in him still, that tendency to be special, he attracted such a following. And so the bad company called forth the serpent of conceit and swallowed him down to the lower plane to the room of mirrors.”
I watched one follower ask a question to the now empty spot, and saw him nod with understanding and bow with gratefulness as though he was given the answer.
“Why do these followers act as though nothing has happened?” I asked. “It seems as though they see him still sitting in front of them.”
“They act thus because they are not yet seeking truth, only grandiose definitions to wrap themselves into. Their new identities are blindfolds.
“They do not see their teacher for who he is, they see him as the symbol for what they want him to be.
“They want to be disciples of a savior, the new messiah, an avatar, not someone who still has human weaknesses. So they worship a lie and let the truth slip away.”
–excerpt from “The Teachings of Yama: A Conversation with Death” -
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M.T.
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February 28, 2020 at 3:20 am Edit
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Robert has a sastang in which he says (paraphrasing) if you are kind of saintly you see me as a saint and if you’re a con man you see me as a con man. 😁
The author of this hit piece who seems to be posing both as the interviewer and interviewee says “My intention is not to disrespect Robert Adams.”
This says all you need to know. LoL. -
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M.T.
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February 28, 2020 at 7:00 am Edit
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“When you look at me, what do you see? You see whatever you’ve been programmed to see. You do not see reality. You see your programming. For instance, if you grew up a Christian, you may say, “Well, Robert is sort of Christ-like.” If you were brought up an agnostic, you may say, “Well, I don’t know what the heck Robert is at all.” If you were brought up Jewish, you would say, “Robert is a great Rabbi.” If you were brought up Buddhist, you would say, “Robert is a Bodhisattva.” If you were brought up in a family of thieves, you would say, “Robert is a con man.” You’re seeing yourself. You’re seeing your programming. You’re seeing the way you’ve been made to think, all of these years since you were a little boy or a little girl. It’s all false.”
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Robert Adams
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existence1010
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February 28, 2020 at 11:55 am Edit
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Hi M.T.
Nice to hear from you. I like your quotes, but do you know who very publicly said those quotes 25 years before Robert Adams did? And also gave many talks on them? -
“I am the man in the mirror, anything you see in me is in you, I am you, and when you can admit that you will be free.” —Charles Manson
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That gives someone a license to do whatever they want. After all it’s all a projection. Let’s follow that thinking through. That means if I rob you and you see me in a negative light, that says nothing about me and everything about you. Not very logical, is it?
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fyblais
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March 1, 2020 at 1:19 pm Edit
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Glenn, there is so many things in the teachings of Robert Adams that contradicts Ramana Maharshi teachings. Just to give you one example is the method of being the witness that Robert Adams recommended. Here is what Sadhu Om who really was staying with Ramana and knows is teachings very well says about it.
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”The practice of witnessing thoughts and events, which is much recommended nowadays by lecturers and writers, was never even in
the least recommended by Sri Bhagavan, Indeed, whenever He was asked what should’ be done when thoughts rise (that is, when attention is diverted towards second or third persons) during sadhana, He always replied in the same manner as He had done to Sri Sivaprakasam Pillai in ‘Who am I?’, where He says, “If other thoughts rise, one should, without attempting to complete them, enquire ‘To whom did they rise?’. What does it matter however many thoughts rise? At the very moment that each thought rises, if one vigilantly enquires ‘To whom did this rise ?’, it will be known ‘To me’. If one then enquires ‘Who am I?’, the mind (our power of attention) will turn back (from the thought) to its source (Self)”. Moreover, when He says later in the same work, “Not attending to what-is-other (that is, to any second or third person) is non-attachment (vairagya) or desirelessness (nirasa)”, we should clearly understand that attending to (witnessing, watching, observing or seeing) anything other than Self is itself attachment, and when we understand thus we will realize how meaningless and impractical are such instructions as ‘Watch all thoughts and events with detachment’ or ‘Witness your thoughts, but be not attached to them’, which are taught by the so-called gurus of the present day.”
~Sadhu Om -
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fyblais
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March 1, 2020 at 1:41 pm Edit
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This is what Robert says on how to recognize a true master from a false.
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”So his disciples and devotees take care of him. And it comes from the heart. But he never asks for money personally. He can ask to help a friend or someone else, but never for himself.”
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Obviously Robert didn’t fit in his own description. He asked money personally for himself to at least Steven and Ed Muzika and didn’t even intend to give it back. Robert said so many times in his teachings that when you surrender to the Self then the Self takes care of everything. Why asking money to others then?
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Robert can talk the talk but cant walk the talk. He is just another fake guru like almost all the rest.
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Glenn, there is so many things in the teachings of Robert Adams that contradicts Ramana Maharshi teachings. Just to give you one example is the method of being the witness that Robert Adams recommended. Here is what Sadhu Om who really was staying with Ramana and knows is teachings very well says about it.
”The practice of witnessing thoughts and events, which is much recommended nowadays by lecturers and writers, was never even in
the least recommended by Sri Bhagavan, Indeed, whenever He was asked what should’ be done when thoughts rise (that is, when attention is diverted towards second or third persons) during sadhana, He always replied in the same manner as He had done to Sri Sivaprakasam Pillai in ‘Who am I?’, where He says, “If other thoughts rise, one should, without attempting to complete them, enquire ‘To whom did they rise?’. What does it matter however many thoughts rise? At the very moment that each thought rises, if one vigilantly enquires ‘To whom did this rise ?’, it will be known ‘To me’. If one then enquires ‘Who am I?’, the mind (our power of attention) will turn back (from the thought) to its source (Self)”. Moreover, when He says later in the same work, “Not attending to what-is-other (that is, to any second or third person) is non-attachment (vairagya) or desirelessness (nirasa)”, we should clearly understand that attending to (witnessing, watching, observing or seeing) anything other than Self is itself attachment, and when we understand thus we will realize how meaningless and impractical are such instructions as ‘Watch all thoughts and events with detachment’ or ‘Witness your thoughts, but be not attached to them’, which are taught by the so-called gurus of the present day.”
~Sadhu Om____________________________________________________________________________________
I can’t respond to your post above so am replying to this one, quoting your original post I’m responding to. This famous quote below has Ramana mentioning ‘witnessing whatever happens’. Robert Adams actually recommended self-enquiry as you or Sadhu Om described above many more times than mentioning witnessing but there it is. I think it’s nit-picking but when I read your post this quote popped into my mind.
“One should remain as a witness to whatever happens, adopting the attitude, ‘Let whatever strange things that happens happen, let us see!’ ” ~ Ramana Maharshi
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fredoo
Its a common phenomen — adaptation —
Some people have the talent of good remembering ad of a sensitive sense to say , what is wanted …
A lot of them are very succesfull gurus …but its a hoax too , that a guru is only a guru if he/she is honest and inkorumpted …
a guru is a guru , if a seeker needs a guru … nothing more … nothing less …a guru is never (!) needed or usefull for spiritual success or progress … this two are also hoax …
A guru might be usefull for the preparation of the ego , after the “great shock” … thats all … and sometimes its a lot …
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Jeff
Oh My! Buckle up its quite a ride on the Cognitive Dissonance Express!
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donny
March 20, 2020 at 7:50 am Edit
To all defending Robert Adams here. I understand that his teachings might have helped you personally (or you think they have). And you might have personal attachments to him because of that. You even come as far as to excuse his weird behaviors, even sexual ones.
But. How are you going to comment this statement from the article:
“Robert also mentioned to me that there were a lot of wild sexual hijinks and orgies going on at Ramana Ashram.”
Nobody noticed this? What the actual flying hell is this? This said the guy that claimed to had lived in Ramanashram when Bhagavan Himself was there. You all know who Ramana Maharshi was. He was a pure saint of Upanishad scale, anyone who knew him will confirm that. His writings such as “40 verses” would belong in holy scriptures if they were written 1000 years ago.
Steven seems not to give it much attention because he seems not to be Ramana’s devotee, but even he was shocked by this ridiculous claim.
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March 24, 2020 at 5:11 am Edit
Donny, that wasn’t even the strangest thing Robert Adams said to me. On more than one occasion Robert told me he believed that the hill Arunachala was hollow inside and contained a city where Ramana lived along with Shankara, Buddha, Baba Muktananda, and a few others. Robert said that when he died he would go there and live inside Arunachala.
To me, it seemed totally off the wall that an adult would believe that. In hindsight, it shows confusion on what “I” is and that he somehow believed he was a separate person with a separate form that would live inside a hill.
So while many of his talks were brilliant and great pointers, there seemed to be also a lack of clarity in some ways.
Robert told everyone his teachings were free and available to all and yet he also told his wife Nicole that his teachings belonged solely to her and were copyrighted to her. What’s up with that? I think it was that to his followers he wanted to appear selfless and yet was also motivated to support his family.
Thus he said one thing, yet acted differently. That showed up in so many instances of his life.
Robert knew the Advaita teachings that say “I” is the formless absolute, yet apparently never got completely clear on what “I” is and somehow still held onto some type of separate form. When one does that and practices holding onto the “I” feeling, the feeling they are holding onto may be no different than the feeling Kim Kardashian or Paris Hilton are holding on to. That is why it is so important to get clear on what “I” is. If it is formless you are not going to go live inside a hill.
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Warwick Wakefield
April 30, 2020 at 5:04 am Edit
Great
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Alex
April 26, 2020 at 4:22 pm Edit
The Robert Adams’ comments about some hijinks and orgies around/in Maharshi’s ashrams are definitely not the truth but there had been some widow’s devotees very close to Ramana Maharshi. (Robert Adams probably read an early edition of Self-Realization by B.V. Narasimhaswami, the English biography of R. Maharshi, there was group photo entitled ‘Ladies Group’, this photo no longer appears in modern editions of the book, here link below).
Hundred years ago, widowhood was a state of social death, even among the higher castes. Among other things, widows had been expected to have a spiritual life and some of them joined an ashram or sadhu colonies to look after such renounces, they cleaned, prepared food for them, and bought books or a medicine. One of such women was Echammal, she was a widow from Tiruvanamalai and when she began to look after Ramana Maharshi she was about 26 years old and Ramana was 29 years old, in 1906-7. Echammal’s younger sister, Venuammal became also widow and joined Arunachalla’s ashrams when she was about 28 years old around the year 1916. (the both sisters had also rented a small house in Tiruvanamalai till 1945). There also was a wife in Ramana’s nearness, her name was Sundarammal, she was rejected by her arranged husband due to her health problems and childlessness, after that, Sundarammal had rented a remoted room approximately for three years close to Guhai Namasivaya Temple and Ramanashram, where Ramana had lived around year 1900. (viz., some photos: Ramana Maharshi’s ‘ladies group’: https://www.davidgodman.org/two-sundarammals/, and other ashram photos online with Echammal, Venuammal together with some children, widows had on a white hooded copes there).
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This sounds either like a joke taken out of context, or that people related to the ashram were having sex (gasp!), or just a lie. If you read through the articles and comments the author clearly has it in for Adams and isn’t being objective in his assessment.
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Blue Q
April 18, 2020 at 12:28 am Edit
Who is Steven S ? ? ? Besides someone who seems to have gotten his feelings hurt because someone else got more attention then he did in class . This is such normal Nth American low brow immature whining .
At
East Robert Adams did something useful at the end of his day . Thanks Robert Adams .
Cheers Blue QLike
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April 19, 2020 at 10:41 am Edit
Blue Q:
Not sure how you interpreted my description of my actual experiences with Robert Adams as whining, but there you go.I have never met you, but I did spend a good amount of time with Robert Adams. Those of us that did know him well such as Ed Muzika, Mary Skene, myself and many others all agree that he lied, had sexual affairs with students, made up stories, and borrowed money without repayment. We all have different interpretations of that. Some think it means he wasn’t a Master, others think it is proof he was a Master. Everyone must decide for themselves about that.
For people that never met him and only have access to his quotes and transcripts, they mostly had no knowledge of his actual life and I hoped to fill that gap a little here in the most honest way I could.
If you believe the way he lived is a demonstration of something you admire God speed to you.
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Jan
April 19, 2020 at 11:04 am Edit
One of closest devotees of Robert Adams, Edward Muzika whom you also mentioned, says that he never seen you in satsangs.
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10219311705096653&id=1631088671
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April 19, 2020 at 1:32 pm Edit
Hi Jan,
Ed Muzika did not know me because I abandoned ship long before Ed arrived on the scene. As you may note in the link you posted, Ed does not disagree with the facts I state, only that he has a different interpretation of them.Like
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Anonymous
April 19, 2020 at 2:32 pm Edit
You are correct.
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Anonymous
April 19, 2020 at 2:42 pm Edit
But I also doubt that he had any sexual affairs with women who attended the class.
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Jan
April 19, 2020 at 2:43 pm Edit
Forgot to sign my name in above two posts.
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Anonymous
April 19, 2020 at 1:41 pm Edit
Jan,
Also, you may note, that I did not wait 35 years to talk about this. It is only because of Katya Osborne’s email that people are now taking what I have been saying seriously since no one doubts her first-hand account and Robert clearly says he stayed in her house which she would know about had it happened.Like
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Jan
April 19, 2020 at 2:38 pm Edit
I see. It is your viewpoint and I can’t argue with that. I think what is misleading in your account is motivation of Robert Adams and his teachings. In my opinion, and experience, he had something to give which is not what your internet gurus these days advertise. Even considering experience which Alan Jacobs reported.
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April 19, 2020 at 4:08 pm Edit
Jan,
I tried to report what happened and things Robert told me as accurately as I possibly could. My own interpretations were inevitably mixed in but if you could tell me exactly what you view as an unfair interpretation of his motives that would help me to see what could be changed to make the account fairer.Like
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Jan
April 19, 2020 at 5:10 pm Edit
I think you have not understood his message, or teaching, if I can put it this way. The things he said was his experience and not your experience, how can you judge that? Another thing which he often said is not to believe a word of his, but to try and experiment on ourselves. But I’m not going to tell you to practice or accept the teaching. And I’m not going to judge or condemn you, for the person you described I could never consider to learn from. The red flag for me would be sexual affairs with devotees and haughtiness you described.
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Justine
I think it’s true that Robert had affairs with students, even Ed openly says it’s true. Papaji also had affairs with students and married one who was 40 years younger than him. Still, thousands can testify that both these men helped them, so who cares who sleeps with who? Having sex isn’t a red flag, unless you’re claiming that you’re not.
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April 19, 2020 at 10:10 pm Edit
Jan,
Robert Adams personally told me that I did understand what he was saying and that I was practicing it in the correct way. And, I told him he was practicing it correctly. But I came to understand later, that the idea of holding onto the “I” feeling was the wrong approach and probably not what Ramana was talking about at all.In my opinion, what Ramana was pointing to was a quest to find out exactly what the real nature of “I” is… that is to discover something new… not to practice something you already know. To become good at holding the “I” feeling just makes you good at holding the “I” feeling. It doesn’t aid in the true discovery of what “I” really is.
I can’t tell you if Robert discovered that true nature. We all already know it is formless and silence… anyone can say that. But have they truly discovered it? If they have their every action is a demonstration of that discovery.
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Jan
April 20, 2020 at 7:17 am Edit
But the teaching of Robert does not end by holding on to the subject of all experiences, aka I.
He emphasized to trace the I to the source, and not hold to the I. By so abiding, the I will lead to the source of I.Like
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April 20, 2020 at 12:40 pm Edit
Hi Jan,
Yes, a lot of what Robert said could pass for wisdom if you only read books.
You said, “He emphasized to trace the I to the source, and not hold to the I. By so abiding, the I will lead to the source of I.”How is it going to lead you to the source when you never left the source?
Doesn’t that suggest that you need to be led somewhere, somewhere you are not already? An endless loop of seeking. He suggests you do this practice to be led to the source of “I” when no one can ever leave the source of “I” thereby sending you on an endless wild goose chase.
In the part 2 article, I quoted Robert quoting Ramana, in which someone says to Ramana, “I’ve been doing self-inquiry for 20 years and nothing has happened,” and Ramana supposedly replied, “try it for another 20 years.”
I don’t believe Ramana would ever say something like that because Ramana knew it was not about having something happen. It is about recognition of what is always already there. It is the yogis that are always trying to make something happen. The sage is all about recognizing what is already there, always there. Which in this case Robert Adams doesn’t seem to have much clarity about. And his behavior seems to confirm his confusion.
It is not about trying to make something happen! To a real sage that would glare out in flashing green and orange lights, and there’s no way they would tell someone to spend another 20 years trying to make something happen by asking “Who am I?”
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Jan
April 21, 2020 at 9:13 am Edit
Hi existence1010,
you wrote “How is it going to lead you to the source when you never left the source?”.
Is this your present experience that you are in the absolute stillness, that you are in the source? I doubt so, that is why the practice is suggested. If we both were in the source now, we wouldn’t have this conversation.
“Doesn’t that suggest that you need to be led somewhere, somewhere you are not already? ”
The implication is not to be lead somewhere else, but to remove all the layers and thoughts which cover up our being.
This is just one of methods among many which Robert suggested. Again, if you actually understood the teachings of Robert, it would be clear to you.I remember the talk which you are referring to about 20 years. The context of this was to forget about time and do Self-Inquiry without looking for results and not looking at time, this would bring fast results.
I am not going to reply to your next post in this thread, as it is based on false understanding you expressed here, which I replied to. Upon which also, is based this whole “interview”.
Obviously Robert’s teachings is not your cup of tea. Why not follow Ramana’s teachings instead of going out and criticizing? Better to spend time usefully. Maybe next hour we both will breathe our last.
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April 21, 2020 at 8:10 am Edit
Hi Jan
I quote here Steven Norquist as an example of the difference between recognizing the truth of reality as it is here and now, contrasted with Robert Adams crackpot narcissistic game of “trying to make something happen” by practicing “methods”… and then preaching love and light and goodness stuff he has read about.
Enlightenment is about recognizing the truth of this moment, not hoping some enlightenment experience is going to happen. What is the truth here now? Always here. That is the question that matters, not repeating “who am I?” and hoping something is going to happen.Steven Norquist:
‘[I] stared at a paper that was sitting on the table in front of me and after about a minute or two an exciting and frightening thing happened – I disappeared!
By that I mean the middle fell right out of the equation. Normally there would be Steve over here looking at the paper on the desk over there, but now there was only the experience “paper,” and no Steve over here seeing it. It was clear that the middle that normally separated the paper from Steve did not really exist; there was only the experience, “paper.” ’Later after various reactions Norquist wrote:
“There were some people of course who were critical of the essay because it did not present Enlightenment as a joyous and rapturous transition into a state of endless bliss. The modern uniformed spiritual community can be blamed for conditioning people into this unfortunate expectation.Instead, this essay presents the blunt reality of Awakening. Enlightenment is not joy and yummies, it is the green mile. At the end of that path lies the permanent cessation of who you thought you were. Lies are dispelled, illusions seen through and a great lethargy can overtake you for the first few years after the disolution.
After all, you have just learned that everything you have ever believed in is bullshit, it is really hard to “buy in” again after that.
I tried to make these points in the essay and generally people got it. But as expected, there were a few who characterized the essay as nihilistic. These people need to move beyond the old way of understanding purpose in this world. ”Like
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Mark
April 28, 2020 at 11:15 am Edit
Who is Steven Strouth really? He seems to have popped up out of nowhere and then disappeared off the face of the earth. Curious that there is no other information online about him anywhere, the only thing I found online with his name on it are 2 books on Amazon which have both been blocked from being sold there over quality concerns. No Facebook? Why are we to believe a guy we’ve never heard of, how do we know he’s not making all this up? I can make stuff up too but it doesn’t make it true. Show us your fsce, shows us a Facebook account that’s been open for more than 3 years with activity, let us see who you are. Let us judge you the way you judge others and maybe you can build some credibility until then I’m assuming your name isn’t even Steven Strouth.
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April 29, 2020 at 10:03 pm Edit
Hi Mark,
Thanks for your message. Has it occurred to you that maybe I don’t have books for sale, or a Facebook account, because I don’t want anything from you? That I’m not trying to sell books, not trying to gain a following, just writing down some memories and opinions.Why should anyone believe anything here? Maybe beliefs are always problematic and not that helpful.
Why believe anything?Possibly it’s more credible than a story of someone living at Ramana ashram for three years and never being seen by anyone there including the people living in the same house; telling 5 very different versions of meeting Ramana for the first time including saying Ramana bowed at his feet and exclaimed to an 18-year-old teenager, “Robert, I’ve waited for you, you are finally here,” and assorted other stories, usually involving large sums of money being donated to the ashram, including Ramana giving ashram funds to a wealthy tourist, (never recorded anywhere else), but I guess everyone has their own level of credulity.
Also, raising a family without anyone ever knowing of him having a job other than as an apartment manager for a few months. How did he support his family since 1954? And why did he get married in the USA in 1954 when he was supposed to be traveling in India for 17 years from 1947 onward? Did he live off followers his entire life? No one is providing any answers. Why not? Why won’t his family answer any questions?
Interestingly enough, Ed Muzika and I both seem to agree on Robert’s lies, money “borrowing,” story fabrications, and womanizing, we just have different interpretations about it.
Mark, if you find something in my report that is incorrect let me know I’m trying to make it as close to what we know as possible. Ad hominem is behind the times though.
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Truthout
In Satsang, Robert said he was staying at Ramanashram as ‘a base’ and stayed in a few places, including a cave and at Arthur Osbourne’s house for an unspecified amount of time, as ‘when foreigners came they were put up with Arthur Osborne most of the time without him knowing’ which could mean they were sent to stay without Arthur’s foreknowledge, rather than actually staying at the house without being noticed. Katya confirms that they did have many people pass through their house, although she seems to have the impression Robert said he stayed at their house for months or years, which he never claimed to my knowledge. It could also be it was another house and Robert assumed it belonged to Arthur, but it seems at least possible he stayed there for a short period of time given. Katya also claims that Ramana never gave anyone fruit, when Ramana would often share out fruit that was brought as an offering. To claim he never gave anyone fruit is more unlikely than claiming he did. There are also various stories about Ramana walking around and stopping off at people’s houses, I recall David Godman saying that if someone made a big deal about him coming and tried to give him special treatment he would stop visiting.
I can’t find anything where Robert, in his own words, claimed to have borrowed Arthur Osborne’s car or received money from him, or donated jeeps or funds for a hospital to the ashram. Maybe he told Ed or someone else these but they don’t seem to have been mentioned in any recorded Satsang.
There are facts that Robert ‘borrowed’ money from you and Ed and also had sexual relations with women, the relevance of which can be debated, but to say he never met Ramana or even went to India is a theory and doesn’t seem it can be proven one way or the other. If you’re a truth seeker you stick to facts and don’t indulge in such speculation. As for evidence Robert did visit Ramana, there was a comment on the now removed David Godman video saying that some Indian people remember Robert sitting under a clock in one of the halls regularly, and of course the testimony of Ganesan (Ramana’s nephew) that Robert had a profound affect on him. Papaji being compelled to read Robert’s Satsang I think also adds some credence to Robert’s teachings, given how dismissive Papaji usually was of other teachers.In my experience, if someone wants to ‘live in truth’, telling lies will block them from experiencing the truth directly, and experiencing truth is a prerequisite for teaching it to others. If Robert did indeed tell as many lies as you say, he would not have been able to live in the truth or share it with others. Many people, myself included, can attest to powerfully experiencing the truth he talked about through his words.
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April 30, 2020 at 1:37 am Edit
“All is well, and everything is unfolding as it should.”.- Robert Adams
“Since the one aim is to realize the Self by destroying the ego, to engage oneself in verbal wrangling about the nature of the world is but vain.” – Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi, “Truth Revealed”
“Attend to the purpose for which you came.” – Bhagavan
“Do not speak unless you can improve upon the Silence.” – Quaker saying
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Zepster
April 30, 2020 at 3:35 pm Edit
Existence 1010 you sound like were a bona fide “guru chaser” back then who had your hopes for finding “the one” dashed by Robert… sorry you got the sour grapes, but in the end it was just what you needed if you think about it… if your wild stories and secondhand accounts are to be believed, then you probably had more money than good sense back then and Robert thought you could miss the cash you inadvertedly “donated” to him anyway. None of the juicy gossip matters, just more maya / distractions, when the real gold is waiting for anyone in his discourses which thankfully were recorded so those who wish to sit in satsang with him will still be able to do it if they wish…
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April 30, 2020 at 4:45 pm Edit
Hi Zepster,
Actually, I had my own guru back then and never really thought of Robert as some type of guru, I just liked what he had to say about self-inquiry which was basically what I was sharing with people in the Ramana Maharshi study group of Los Angeles which I started.Robert came to me, I was not particularly looking for anyone at the time. He called me up and asked if he could be part of the group. Believing that he actually knew Ramana made him a welcome addition to the group I thought.
Was the real gold in what he was teaching? From my current viewpoint no, he taught people to be self-obsessed just like he was with a few gems about silence thrown in. I don’t think I have to mention again his crackpot idea of looking in the mirror and admitting to yourself the truth, “I am Brahman,” to demonstrate his abject confusion.
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Someone asked me how can someone have a lot of clarity on “no ego” and still be confused or half-baked in some way. This link gives a story about Ed Muzika which is interesting:
http://the-wanderling.com/muzika.htmlSo what is going on here?
That incredible realization that Ed is talking about, that sudden discovery, of no personal self changes everything. It is the biggest discovery anyone can make until that time.
However, that is only step one of a two-step journey. Those, like Robert Adams and others [wonderful people though they are] who go out and declare themselves enlightened and begin functioning as a spiritual teacher immediately, [if they have really discovered this and are not just repeating what they’ve read] tend to cut themselves off from the possibility of part 2 of the journey.
What is part 2? It is integration. Let me give an example. Let’s say I am addicted to sex, money, drugs, or overeating. Did that sudden realization suddenly end all of my habits? No, it didn’t. Habits are habits. But if I live the realization those habits will drop off. Those who declare themselves finished at this first realization of true nature will say that those habits and the changing of them will not bring about enlightenment or disturb it. This is true.They claim freedom to engage in any behavior, freedom from morality, ethics and even ordinary kindness. It is true they are free of that sort of thing. But when you have integrated “Oneness with all,” do you mistreat others? No, not possible even as the average person will not mistreat his own arm or leg. Why not? Because they have not only discovered oneness with their arm, they have integrated it… it is real, natural and the way they actually live. Someone who is angry at their own arm has not integrated their oneness with it, even if they can speak glowingly about it. Similarly, someone who has integrated oneness with all beings does not lie to others, or misuse them in any way. It is just not possible.
So, the newly “enlightened” may declare themselves “teachers” and go about indulging all such habits with the idea that lies and unethical behavior present no hindrance. They say that they are now “free beings” and can engage in any sort of behavior and it will not matter. In a way they are right, it will not end their realization… but it will prevent them from getting to part 2.
In general, the way to part 2, the full integration of no ego, of “I AM This,” is to live it without in any manner putting yourself above others as a “teacher.” Acting as a Master puts you in a position that no one can call you on your lies, abuse and lack of integrity or missing empathy. Bernadette Roberts said this part 2 of the journey took her 10 years. That was quick.
To adopt someone as a teacher who has only reached part 1 leads to all sorts of abuse because he or she feels free to abuse anyone, free to do anything. On full integration, it will be a case in which no abuse can occur because on a gut level they experience everyone as One Self, as only the one Awareness which needs nothing and fears nothing. Addiction or attachment to anything is no longer in operation. It just doesn’t arise, and if it does it means: still in part 1.Like
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Truly appreciate all you have shared with this current post. It’s been a real wake-up call for this One.
All is well, and unfolding exactly as it should, indeed!
May you be well always, tell the Truth, and love everyone.
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Robert Adams described his full enlightenment at age 14. Here is his description and my explanation on why what he described as enlightenment is not that at all.
“Anyway, it was the end of the term, and we were taking our final
test. This was a math test. I never studied for it, so I didn’t know anything.
So I said, “God, God, God.” Instead of the answers coming, the room
became filled with light, a brilliant bright light, a thousand times more
brilliant than the sun. It was like an atomic bomb, the light from the
bomb, but it was not a burning light. It was a beautiful, bright, shining,
warm glow. Just thinking of it now makes me stop and wonder. The whole
room was immersed in light, everybody, everything. All of the children
seemed to be myriads of light particles, and then I found myself melting,
sort of, into radiant being, into consciousness. I merged into
consciousness.
It was not an out of body experience. An out of body experience is
when your soul leaves your body. This was completely different. I realized
that I was not my body. What appeared to be my body was not real.
And I went beyond the light into pure radiant consciousness. I became
omnipresent. My individuality had merged into pure absolute bliss. I
expanded, I became the universe. The feeling is indescribable. It was
total bliss, total joy.The next thing I remember is the teacher shaking me. All the
students had gone. I was the only one left in the class. The teacher was
shaking me, and I returned to consciousness, human consciousness. That
feeling has never left me.
Now what does this have to do with you? Everything, for when I
say, “You are absolute reality, absolute bliss,” when I say, “all this is the Self
and I am that,” I-am encompasses everybody, everything. “I am that”
encompasses the whole universe. I am that, pure intelligence, ultimate
reality, sat-chit-ananda, parabrahman. I am speaking from my
experience. Death becomes a joke, there is no such thing. Your real
nature is immortality. Your real nature is unalloyed happiness, ultimate
oneness. This is what you really are. Awaken to it and be free.”—p.503 Robert Adams TranscriptsThis is what Robert Adams continually referred to as his moment of awakening, or when he awakened to the Self and was done.
Is this experience genuine awakening? No, the experience described is a normal mystical experience. One millions of people have had and do not mistake for enlightenment.
Then what is enlightenment and how does it differ from this? Enlightenment is a simple change in perspective. It is when the subject-object duality is realized to be a lie, a learned and false perspective. One shifts out of that false perspective and into a perspective of “not two,” “I am this,” “just this,” “I am formless and not the person identity previously thought.”But he said he merged with pure bliss and became the universe.
Yes, and he also says he returned to human consciousness. He said he was the only one left in the classroom and “the teacher was shaking me.” In other words he was back to separate identity. In enlightenment there is no return to separate identity. There is a shift out of it. If he said something like “the teacher was shaking and I was the teacher and the classroom and the world and that condition never left me,” that would suggest enlightenment.He said the feeling never left him, and yes, the feeling of a mystical experience never leaves you, especially one like this, and of course after such an experience you will always know that in truth you are “all” and remember that. But it won’t be your lived experience, it will just be something you are speaking from memory about.
So, for a sage these mystical experiences are not important, incredible though they are. Only that simple shift out of separate identity, out of subject-object duality is valued… a shift from which you do not return to separate human identity as Robert Adams described he did.
This shift often happens in ordinary circumstances, it doesn’t have to be, (and usually isn’t) some big cosmic experience of light “more brilliant than thousands of suns.” It is often just a simple, “oh.” Or, “I’ll be darn, that’s what it is.” Just a simple thing. But that simple thing permanently changes your perspective while these cosmic overwhelming mystical experiences, great though they may be, come and go and leave you back in the ordinary human consciousness with nothing but a memory and a feeling.
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Hmmmmm
Ramana Maharshi has said that according to him, Arunachala mountain is hollow inside and contains many worlds. So according to your logic, Ramana Maharshi also was not enlightened.
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Anonymous
Hmmmmm,
Did Ramana say he planned on living there (in a city inside the hill) once his body died? If he did, then it’s true, I would not regard that as an enlightened viewpoint.It seems to me Ramana said he would be going nowhere upon his death… if so, then that would be an enlightened viewpoint IMO.
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Hmmmmm
Anonymous,
My point is that you cannot say if someone is enlightened or not because of what he/she has said or how he/she acts. There is no enlightened viewpoint, that is my point, there are no rules for this. Either we are awake or not. Ramana Maharshi and also Nisargadatta has said so many contradicting things, that it would seem, to the average spiritual seeker, that they are not enlightened at all. All this discussing is pure entertaining.
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Anonymous
*entertainment
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Well, Hmmmm, if someone is trying to pass off a mystical experience as enlightenment, and also saying they will live in a city inside a mountain upon their death, or holding onto an “I” feeling and passing that off as enlightenment well yes, you can tell something.
I just read an interesting book by David Parrish called, “Enlightenment Made Easy,” and it described “enlightenment” perfectly as I understand it. I know nothing about David Parrish, never communicated with him, yet I would venture to guess that his life is lacking all the “crazy” behavior of Robert Adams. Just a guess.
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Hmmmmm
existence1010,
So if I understand you correctly, based on what you say about Robert Adams, you see him as a person inside a body that said all of those things, Yes? Why do you not read his techings, or Ramana’s or Nisargadatta’s and see who or what it is that just read an interesting book by David Parrish? Forget the one that delivered the teaching and look ONLY at the teaching.
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Hmmmm, no one is a person inside a body, some just may think they are.
At least we agree that the teachings are the only thing important. From my viewpoint Ramana got it, Nis got it, Parrish got it, and Robert Adams did not get it. Robert Adams in all sorts of ways lets slip his lack of clarity and confusion of mysticism with “enlightenment.” But, if you like his stuff that’s great. You don’t need me or anyone else telling you not to like it.
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Hmmmmm
It’s not that I like his stuff, I follow only Ramana and Nisargadatta, so to speak. I just find this discussion interesting, that is all. Because in my humble opinion, real enlightenment is to find out who it is that is seeking enlightenment. Who wants to discuss, who is reading these words. And once you know how to do this or how to find out, no matter who gave you the practice, the only thing that you then need to do is to do as you have been told and find out. Nothing else. I wish you all the best.
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Hmmm,
Let’s just be clear about it. Anything that appears is the content of consciousness. Content is always changing. The person is content. Lights, bliss, joy, sadness are all the changing content.There is that which is aware of all changing conditions and has never changed. That’s what the sage’s business is with. Not with anything that is not always there. So when Adams said he had an experience of Light brighter than a thousands suns and that was his enlightenment experience he is talking about content, something that comes and goes. When he talks about bliss and love and happiness being it, he is talking about the content of consciousness.
Those enamored with the content of consciousness are not sages, they may be great mystics though.
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Hmmmmm
I agree with what you are saying but Nisargadatta also has said that he used to sit for hours in meditation with nothing but the ‘IAM’ in his mind because his guru told him to. That story of Nisargadatta is basically the same as what Robert said, or when I tell you that I am going to walk my dog in one hour. They are all appearances in consciousness. If you understand that, how can you have any problems or issues? This I don’t understand.
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Hmmmmm
Even a so called sage is just an appearance in your consciousness. Where are they in deep sleep? In the end, all what you see is unreal. No one exists. What exists in the waking state is only the feeling that you exist and that is not a person. That is universal being. That is absent in deep sleep. So why worry about an appearance in consciousness, what he has done or not. Just wake up from this useless dream and be done with it, that is what I would do.
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Hmmmmm,
I think Nis’ point was for everyone to stop doing things and see what is always already there. Not do some practice that is going to get you there. What is the essence of ‘nothing but “I AM”?’ Just be as you are. Prior to appearances. No light “the brightness of thousands of suns,” no bliss, no anything. Just be as you are. Letting go of all accomplishments, attainments, and add-on’s. The pure emptiness of being.Like
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Hmmmmm
My point is that they are all just happenings in consciousness. But all is well existence1010. Discussion is pointless in my point of view, it’s mere entertainment.
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